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Thread started 08/26/08 1:34am

mdiver

The Skinhead movement worldwide (Not just the USA)

I noticed a few comments lately incorporating blanket statement about "skinheads" in general and some of them appeared to put the whole movement in to the box of racists or neo-nazi thugs. The movement started in England and for many here that is a connotation that simply is not true. I agree that some are that way, but there are also many that are totally the opposite and in fact the roots of the movement could not be further from that definition.

I hope that some here can learn that definitions within ones own country do not always represent the whole world scene and as such blanket statements can be utterly offensive and without justification.

This is the best general history/description but there are many other sources to find specifics if you wish.

A skinhead is a member of a subculture that originated among working class youths in the United Kingdom in the 1960s, and then spread to other parts of the world. Named for their close-cropped or shaven heads, the first skinheads were greatly influenced by West Indian (specifically Jamaican) rude boys and British mods, in terms of fashion, music and lifestyle.[1][2] Originally, the skinhead subculture was primarily based on those elements, not politics or race.[2] Since then, however, attitudes toward race and politics have become factors in which some skinheads align themselves. The political spectrum within the skinhead scene ranges from the far right to the far left, although many skinheads are apolitical. Fashion-wise, skinheads range from a clean-cut 1960s mod-influenced style to less-strict punk- and hardcore-influenced styles.

In the late 1950s, the United Kingdom's entrenched class system limited most working class people's educational, housing, and economic opportunities. However, Britain's post-war economic boom led to an increase in disposable income among many young people. Some of those youths spent that income on new fashions popularised by American soul groups, British R&B bands, certain movie actors, and Carnaby Street clothing merchants.[3][4]

These youths became known as the mods, a youth subculture noted for its consumerism—and devotion to fashion, music, and scooters.[5] Mods of lesser means made do with practical styles that suited their lifestyle and employment circumstances: steel-toe boots, straight-leg jeans or Sta-Prest trousers, button-down shirts, and braces (called suspenders in the USA). When possible, these working-class mods spent their money on suits and other sharp outfits to wear at dancehalls, where they enjoyed soul, ska, bluebeat and rocksteady music.[1][6]

Around 1965, a schism developed between the peacock mods (also known as smooth mods), who were less violent and always wore the latest expensive clothes, and the hard mods (also known as gang mods), who were identified by their shorter hair and more working-class image.[7] Also known as lemonheads and peanuts, these hard mods became commonly known as skinheads by about 1968.[8] Their shorter hair may have come about for practical reasons, since long hair can be a liability in industrial jobs and a disadvantage in streetfights. Skinheads may also have cut their hair short in defiance of the more bourgeois hippie culture popular at the time.[9]

In addition to retaining many mod influences, early skinheads were very interested in Jamaican rude boy styles and culture, especially the music: ska, rocksteady, and early reggae (before the tempo slowed down and lyrics became focused on topics like black nationalism and the Rastafari movement).[10][11][1] Skinhead culture became so popular by 1969 that even the rock band Slade temporarily adopted the look, as a marketing strategy.[12][13][14] The subculture gained wider notice because of a series of violent and sexually explicit novels by Richard Allen, notably Skinhead and Skinhead Escapes.[15] [16] Due to largescale British migration to Perth, Western Australia, many British youths in that city joined skinhead/sharpies gangs in the 1960s and formed their own Australian style.[17][18]

By the 1970s, the skinhead subculture started to fade from popular culture, and some of the original skins dropped into new categories, such as the suedeheads (defined by the ability to manipulate one's hair with a comb), smoothies (often with shoulder-length hairstyles), and bootboys (with mod-length hair; associated with gangs and football hooliganism).[9] [19] [8][20] Some fashion trends returned to mod roots, reintroducing brogues, loafers, suits, and the slacks-and-sweater look.

In 1977, the skinhead subculture was revived to a notable extent after the introduction of punk rock. Most of these revival skinheads were a reaction to the commercialism of punk and adopted a sharp, smart look in line with the original look of the 1969 skinheads and included Gary Hodges and Hoxton Tom McCourt (both later of the band the 4-Skins) and Suggs, later of the band Madness.

From 1979 onwards, skinheads with even shorter hair and less emphasis on traditional styles grew in numbers and grabbed media attention, mostly as a result of their involvement with football hooliganism. These skinheads wore punk-influenced styles, like higher boots than before (14-20 eyelets) and tighter jeans (sometimes splattered with bleach). However, there was still a group of skinheads who preferred the original mod-inspired styles. Eventually different interpretations of the skinhead subculture expanded beyond the UK and Europe. One major example is that in the United States, certain segments of the hardcore punk scene embraced skinhead style and developed their own version of the subculture.[21]

[edit] Racism, anti-racism and politics
Unidentified neo-Nazi skinhead.
Unidentified neo-Nazi skinhead.

In the late 1960s, some skinheads (including black skinheads) had engaged in violence against random Pakistanis and other South Asian immigrants (an act known as Paki bashing in common slang).[22][23][9] Although these early skinheads were not part of an organized racist movement, by the early 1970s there were skinheads who aligned themselves with the white nationalist National Front.[citation needed] However, there had also been anti-racist and leftist skinheads from the beginning, especially in areas such as Scotland and northern England.[24] [25] As the 1970s progressed, the racially-motivated skinhead violence in the UK became more partisan, and groups such as the National Front and the British Movement saw a rise in skinheads among their ranks. Although many skinheads rejected political labels being applied to their subculture, some working class skinheads blamed non-white immigrants for economic and social problems, and agreed with far right organizations' positions against blacks and Asians. By the late 1970s, some openly neo-Nazi groups were largely composed of skinheads, and by this point, the mass media, and subsequently the general public, had largely come to view skinheads exclusively as a subculture promoting white power.[citation needed]

However, during the late 1970s and early 1980s, many skinheads, suedeheads, ex-skinheads and football casuals in the UK rejected the dogma of both the left and right. This anti-extremist attitude was musically typified by Oi! bands such as Cockney Rejects, The 4-Skins and The Business.

The mainstream media started using the term skinhead in reports of racist violence, and has played the largest role in skewing public perceptions about the subculture.[26] Geoff Pearson describes this simply as society using the skinheads as scapegoats for latent social problems:

Paki-bashing has become associated with skinheads. ... Liberal consciences might ask: "why on earth do kids beat up immigrants?" But liberal consciences had seen nothing on earth like the Skinhead: the senselessness of his football hooliganism, his violence, and his clothing forced a neat closure to any critical thought. Anyone dressed like that would do anything: it stood to reason. Thus we are left with one of those self-evident truths of a media-induced hypnosis, and there is no longer any reason left to search for the reason why people attack immigrants.[27]

Skinheads Against Racial Prejudice (SHARP) logo
Skinheads Against Racial Prejudice (SHARP) logo

Bill Osgerby further supports the claim that it is the skinhead fashion which makes them an easy target. Osgerby says, "the skinheads’ defiant proletariat posture (work boots, braces, prison ‘crop’ hairstyle) was what ensured that the media would present skinheads as 'public enemy number one'."[28] Television shows like Oprah and Geraldo make skinheads the theme of their shows and further perpetuate the stereotype. The media has also linked skinheads to football hooliganism, while it seems clear that hooliganism was a sort of subculture of its own.[29].

Some skinheads countered the neo-Nazi stereotype by forming anti-racist organizations, such as The Minneapolis Baldies, who started in 1986; Skinheads Against Racial Prejudice (SHARP), which was founded in New York City in 1987 and spread to several other countries; and Anti-Racist Action (ARA), which was founded in the late 1980s by members of the Minneapolis Baldies and other activists.[30][31][32][33][34] Other less-political skinheads also spoke out against neo-Nazis and in support of traditional skinhead culture. Two examples of this were the Glasgow Spy Kids in Scotland (who coined the phrase Spirit of 69), and the publishers of the Hard As Nails zine in England.[24]

[edit] Political categories

There are several different political categories of skinheads. However, many skinheads don't fit into any of these categories. The usefulness of these terms is to explain the dominant forces of skinhead political groupings. There are no reliable statistics documenting how many skinheads have belonged to each category.

Anti-racist skinheads, sometimes known as SHARPs (Skinheads Against Racial Prejudice), are aggressively opposed to neo-Nazism and racism, although not always political in terms of other issues.[32][31] The label SHARP is sometimes used to describe all anti-racist skinheads, even if they aren't members of a SHARP organization. Some anti-racist skinheads have been involved with political groups such as Anti-Fascist Action or Anti-Racist Action. White power and traditional skinheads (especially in the U.S.) sometimes refer to them as baldies, possibly referring to the development of Anti-Racist Action from a St. Paul Minnesota crew that termed themselves the Baldies.

Apolitical skinheads either oppose all politics in general, are politically moderate, or keep their personal political views out of the skinhead subculture. Skinheads on either extreme of the political spectrum sometimes refer to this type as a fencesitter or fencewalker.
Red and Anarchist Skinheads (RASH) logo.
Red and Anarchist Skinheads (RASH) logo.
Hammerskins logo.
Hammerskins logo.

Left wing skinheads are anti-racist and anti-fascist, taking a militant pro-working class stance. This category includes redskins and anarchist skinheads.[35] The most well-known organization in this category is Red and Anarchist Skinheads.[36]

Right wing skinheads are conservative and patriotic, but not necessarily extreme or fascist. This type of skinhead seems to be common in the United States.[21]

White power skinheads or neo-Nazi skinheads are racist, extremely nationalist and highly political.[1][37] Many Nazi skinheads have no connection to the original 1960s skinhead culture in terms of style or interests. SHARPs and traditional skinheads often refer to them as boneheads. One group associated with this movement is Hammerskins.

[edit] Style and clothing

In addition to short hair, skinheads are identified by their specific clothing styles. Skinhead fashions have evolved somewhat since the formation of the subculture in the 1960s, and certain clothing styles have been more prevalent in specific geographic locations and time periods. The following list includes many of the clothing articles that have been worn by skinheads.[38][8][39]

Hair:

* Men: Originally, between a 2 and 3 grade clip-guard (short, but not bald); beginning in the late 1970s, typically shaved closer, with no greater than a number 2 guard. Now some skinheads clip their hair with no guard, and some even shave it with a razor. This started with the introduction of the Oi! scene. Some skinheads sport sideburns of various styles, usually neatly trimmed.
* Women: In the 1960s, many female skinheads had mod-style haircuts. During the 1980s skinhead revival, many female skinheads had feathercuts (known as a Chelsea in North America). A feathercut is short on the crown, with fringes at the front, back and sides. Some female skinheads have a shorter punk-style version of the hairstyle; almost entirely shaved, leaving only bangs and fringes at the front.

Tops:

* Men: Long Sleeve fitted Ben Sherman or Jaytex shirts with bracers or fitted Ben Sherman, Fred Perry, Brutus, Jaytex, and other brands of button-up or polo shirts; Lonsdale or Everlast shirts or sweatshirts; grandad shirts (collarless shirts); V-neck sweaters; tank tops (known as sweater vests in North America); cardigan sweaters; T-shirts (plain white or with text and/or images related to bands or the skinhead subculture); fitted blazers. Traditional skinheads sometimes wear suits, usually including a three-button waisted jacket, and often made out of two-tone tonic fabric, by Dormieul, (shiny mohair-like material that changes colour in different light and angles), or in a Prince of Wales or houndstooth check pattern. Some Oi!! and hardcore-oriented skinheads wear plain white wifebeater undershirts, especially in North America.
* Women: Same as men, with addition of dress suits—composed of a ¾-length jacket and matching short skirt.

Coats: MA-1 type flight jackets (popular brands: Alpha and Warrior), usually black or green; blue-denim jackets (Levi's or Wrangler); Harrington jackets; donkey jackets; monkey jackets; Crombie-style overcoats; short macs; sheepskin 3/4-length coats; parkas.

Bottoms:

* Men: Sta-Prest flat-fronted slacks and other dress trousers; Jeans (normally Levi's, Lee or Wrangler), parallel leg, with rolled cuffs (turn-ups) to show off boots, or with hem cut off and re-sewn; usually blue; sometimes splattered with bleach to resemble camouflage trousers, popular among Oi! skinheads; combat trousers (plain or camouflage), popular among Oi! skins and scooterboys. Jeans and slacks are worn deliberately short in order to show off boots (or to show off socks when wearing loafers or brogues).
* Women: Same jeans and trousers as men, or skirts and stockings. Some skingirls wear fishnet stockings and mini-skirts, a style introduced during the punk-influenced skinhead revival.

Skinhead style: Dr. Martens boots with Levi's jeans
Skinhead style: Dr. Martens boots with Levi's jeans

Footwear:

* Men: boots, originally army-surplus or generic workboots, then Dr. Martens (AKA Docs, DMs or Doc Martens) boots and shoes, and later brogues, loafers, fringed and buckled stompers, and slats (especially among suedeheads). Other brands of boots have become popular, such as Solovair, partly because Dr. Martens and Grinders are no longer made in England. During the 1960s, steel-toe boots were called bovver boots derived from the Cockney pronunciation of bother (in this context, meaning violence). Suedeheads sometimes wore coloured socks, such as in red, orange or green. Adidas Samba and Dragon trainer sneakers have been becoming more and more popular in skinhead culture, primarily on the east coast of the United States.
* Women: Dr. Martens boots or shoes, monkey boots, loafers, or brogues.

Hats:
Trilby hats; pork pie hats; flat caps (AKA Scally cap or driver cap) or winter woolen hats (without bobble, also known as Benny hats). Less common have been bowler hats (mostly among suedeheads and those influenced by the film A Clockwork Orange).

Braces:
Braces, various colours, usually no more than ¾ inch in width, clipped to trouser waistband. In some areas, braces much wider than that may identify a skinhead as either unfashionable or as a white power skinhead. Traditionally, braces are worn up in an X- or Y-shape at the back, but some Oi!-oriented skinheads wear their braces hanging down.

Handkerchiefs:
Silk handkerchiefs in the breast pocket of the Crombie or tonic jacket, in some cases fastened with an ornate stud. Later, pocket flashes became popular. These were pieces of silk in contrasting colours, mounted on a piece of cardboard and designed to look like an elaborately folded handkerchief. It was common to choose the colours based on one's favourite football club.

Badges and Scarves:
Button badges or sewn-on fabric patches with text and/or images related to bands or the skinhead subculture. Politically-minded skinheads sometimes wear badges related to their ideological views. Striped woollen or printed rayon scarves in football club colours, worn knotted at the neck, wrist, or hanging from a belt loop at the waist.

Umbrellas
Some suedeheads carried closed umbrellas with sharpened tips, or a handle with a pull-out blade. This led to the nickname brollie boys.

Tattoos
Tattoos have been popular among many skinheads since at least the 1970s revival. In 1980s Britain, some skinheads had tattoos on their faces or foreheads, although the practice has since fallen out of favour. Some skinheads get tattoos with images or text related to the skinhead subculture in general, their affiliations and/or their beliefs.

Style categories

There are several different types of skinheads in terms of style. Some skinheads don't fit into any of these categories, and many display characteristics of more than one category. The usefulness of these terms is to explain the dominant skinhead styles. There are no reliable statistics documenting how many skinheads have belonged to each category.

Traditional skinheads, also known as trads or Trojan skinheads, identify with the original 1960s skinhead subculture in terms of music, style, culture, and working class pride.

Oi! skinheads appeared after the development of punk rock in the 1970s. They often have shorter hair and more tattoos than 1960s skinheads, and wear items—such as higher boots, tighter jeans, T-shirts, and flight jackets—that differ from those of their traditionalist counterparts.

Hardcore skinheads originated in the United States hardcore punk scene in the late 1970s (with bands such as Iron Cross, Agnostic Front, Cro-mags, Sheer Terror, Warzone, and Murphy's Law). They differ from traditional skinheads by their musical tastes and a style of dress that is less strict.

[edit] Colour of laces and braces

Some skinheads, particularly highly political ones, attach significance to the colour of boot laces to indicate beliefs or affiliations. The colour of braces, and (less commonly) flight jackets may also signify affiliations. The particular colours used have varied regionally, and have meant totally different things in different areas and time periods. In the early days of the skinhead subculture, some skinheads chose lace colours based on the football team they supported. Only skinheads from the same area and time period are likely to interpret them accurately. The "braces and laces game" has largely fallen into disuse, particularly among traditionalist skinheads, who are more likely to choose their colours for fashion purposes than for expressing views.

[edit] Music

The skinhead subculture was originally associated with music genres such as soul, ska, rocksteady and early reggae.[1][40] The link between skinheads and Jamaican music led to the development of the skinhead reggae genre; performed by artists such as Desmond Dekker, Derrick Morgan, Laurel Aitken, Symarip and The Pioneers.[11] In the early 1970s, some Suedeheads also listened to British glam rock bands such as The Sweet, Slade and Mott the Hoople.[19][41] During this time, some reggae lyrics featured themes of black liberation and awareness, something that white skinheads could not relate to.[42] This shift in reggae's lyrical themes created some tension between black and white skinheads, who otherwise got along fairly well.[43]

The most popular music style for late-1970s skinheads was 2 Tone (also called Two Tone), which was a musical fusion of ska, rocksteady, reggae, pop and punk rock.[44] The 2 Tone genre was named after a Coventry, England record label that featured bands such as The Specials, Madness and The Selecter.[45][46][47] The record label scored many top 20 hits, and eventually a number one.

Some late 1970s skinheads also liked certain punk rock bands, such as The Clash, Sham 69 and Menace; and by the late 1970s, the Oi! subgenre was embraced by many skinheads and punks.[48] Musically, Oi! combines elements of punk, football chants, pub rock and British glam rock.[49] The Oi! scene was partly a response to a sense that many participants in the early punk scene were, in the words of The Business guitarist Steve Kent, "trendy university people using long words, trying to be artistic...and losing touch".[50] Some forefathers of Oi! were Sham 69, Cock Sparrer, and Menace. The term Oi! as a musical genre is said to come from the band Cockney Rejects and journalist Garry Bushell, who championed the genre in Sounds magazine.[51][52][49] Notable Oi! bands of the late 1970s and early 1980s include Angelic Upstarts, Blitz, The Business, Last Resort, The Burial, Combat 84 and The 4-Skins.[8] Not exclusively a skinhead genre, many Oi! bands included skins, punks and people who fit into neither category (sometimes called herberts).[citation needed]

American Oi! began in the 1980s with bands such as The Press, Iron Cross, The Bruisers, Anti-Heros and Forced Reality.[53][54][55] American skinheads created a link between their subculture and hardcore punk music, with bands such as Warzone, Agnostic Front, and Cro-Mags. The Oi! style has also spread to other parts of the world, and remains popular with many skinheads. Many later Oi! bands have combined influences from early American hardcore and 1970s British streetpunk.

Although many white power skinheads listened to Oi! music, they also developed a separate genre known as Rock Against Communism (RAC).[56] The most notable RAC band was Skrewdriver, which started out as a non-political punk band but evolved into a neo-Nazi band after the first lineup broke up and a new lineup was formed.[57][58][59] RAC started out musically similar to Oi! and punk rock, and has adopted some elements from heavy metal and other types of rock music.

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Reply #1 posted 08/26/08 1:48am

shanti0608

Being here in the UK, it is easy to see that there is a difference. Talking over dinner on Friday at your work gathering, I have realised that many labels are different here from America.
It was very enlightening to talk to Daimen who has a West Indies father and an English mother.
That is a conversation that I will never forget and I hope to get to talk to him again about his feelings on racism and labels.


anyways.... back to skinheads, here they do appear to be different than the skinheads at home.

I guess that is one reason I hate labels.


peace!


We are all humans first.


HATE BREEDS HATE!

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Reply #2 posted 08/26/08 11:03am

butterfli25

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thanks for the education.

butterfly
We all should know that diversity makes for a rich tapestry, and we must understand that all the threads of the tapestry are equal in value no matter what their color.
Maya Angelou

http://www.myspace.com/butterfli25
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Reply #3 posted 08/26/08 11:03am

mdiver

butterfli25 said:

thanks for the education.


You are most welcome.

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Reply #4 posted 08/26/08 11:09am

CarrieMpls

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moderator

When I think of skinheads I mostly think of ska, flight jackets, doc martens and braces (suspenders).

If you’re talking about racism and skinheads, I knew of the anti-racist skinheads long before I knew of the others. There was a fairly big scene here in Mpls of anti-racist skinheads (the baldies and ARA - Anti-Racist Action) in the 80’s and early 90’s.
[Edited 8/26/08 11:11am]

Would you like to marry me?
And if you like you can buy the ring
I dont dream about anyone - except myself
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Reply #5 posted 08/26/08 11:13am

CarrieMpls

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moderator

CarrieMpls said:

When I think of skinheads I mostly think of ska, flight jackets, doc martens and braces (suspenders).

If you’re talking about racism and skinheads, I knew of the anti-racist skinheads long before I knew of the others. There was a fairly big scene here in Mpls of anti-racist skinheads (the baldies and ARA - Anti-Racist Action) in the 80’s and early 90’s.
[Edited 8/26/08 11:11am]



Here's an interesting article that was featured recently in our weekly:

http://www.citypages.com/...-at-forty/

(It's looooong but a good read.)

Would you like to marry me?
And if you like you can buy the ring
I dont dream about anyone - except myself
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Reply #6 posted 08/26/08 11:14am

Mach

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moderator

CarrieMpls said:

When I think of skinheads I mostly think of ska, flight jackets, doc martens and braces (suspenders).

If you’re talking about racism and skinheads, I knew of the anti-racist skinheads long before I knew of the others. There was a fairly big scene here in Mpls of anti-racist skinheads (the baldies and ARA - Anti-Racist Action) in the 80’s and early 90’s.



This was my experience as well in the 80's though I ( around the same time ) learned about the racist ones as well

chatterbox
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Reply #7 posted 08/26/08 11:17am

shanti0608

I guess that is the crazy things about labels.

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Reply #8 posted 08/26/08 11:33am

mdiver

shanti0608 said:

I guess that is the crazy things about labels.


Don't knock labels no no no! they help us put people in to boxes so that they can be written off and not allowed to alter our safe world wink

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Reply #9 posted 08/26/08 11:47am

Graycap23

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If this were true why associate yourself with something that u KNOW already has such a negative background?

If u want some censored shit.......go elsewhere. If u want the TRUTH, come 2 me.
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Reply #10 posted 08/26/08 11:50am

shanti0608

mdiver said:

shanti0608 said:

I guess that is the crazy things about labels.


Don't knock labels no no no! they help us put people in to boxes so that they can be written off and not allowed to alter our safe world wink


TRUE! I am American, I must be bad.

neutral

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Reply #11 posted 08/26/08 11:50am

mdiver

Graycap23 said:

If this were true why associate yourself with something that u KNOW already has such a negative background?


In some places, black folk have a negative association/background, if i were to believe that then i would be accused immediately of being a racist. What is your problem with accepting that outside of your borders associations are not the same?

And what the hell is "if this were true"?

Would you care to demonstrate for me the roots of the movement?

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Reply #12 posted 08/26/08 11:58am

shanti0608

I am so glad that as I have traveled to other countries that ppl have chosen NOT to hate me when they find out I am American.

Labels.... neutral

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Reply #13 posted 08/26/08 11:59am

Graycap23

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mdiver said:

Graycap23 said:

If this were true why associate yourself with something that u KNOW already has such a negative background?


In some places, black folk have a negative association/background, if i were to believe that then i would be accused immediately of being a racist. What is your problem with accepting that outside of your borders associations are not the same?

And what the hell is "if this were true"?

Would you care to demonstrate for me the roots of the movement?

U did NOT answer my question.

If u want some censored shit.......go elsewhere. If u want the TRUTH, come 2 me.
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Reply #14 posted 08/26/08 12:03pm

mdiver

Graycap23 said:

mdiver said:



In some places, black folk have a negative association/background, if i were to believe that then i would be accused immediately of being a racist. What is your problem with accepting that outside of your borders associations are not the same?

And what the hell is "if this were true"?

Would you care to demonstrate for me the roots of the movement?

U did NOT answer my question.


Because it is not valid, the association that YOU have is your frame of reference. That is not valid to me because that is NOT the association of many, both in England and in fact as this thread demonstrates, in the USA.

What you actually mean is "i have a negative view so you should accept that and not associate"

If i were to take the negative view some have of muslims would i be correct?
If i took the negative view some have of blacks would i be correct?
If i took the negative view some have of gays would i be correct?

Just because YOU have that view that does not make it the ONLY view.

If you had read the post and the information you would see that i indeed said that there are "some" who think that way, as there are some wall street traders or solicitors or whatever that do.

The issue is blanket statements.

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Reply #15 posted 08/26/08 12:10pm

Graycap23

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mdiver said:

Graycap23 said:


U did NOT answer my question.


Because it is not valid, the association that YOU have is your frame of reference. That is not valid to me because that is NOT the association of many, both in England and in fact as this thread demonstrates, in the USA.

What you actually mean is "i have a negative view so you should accept that and not associate"

If i were to take the negative view some have of muslims would i be correct?
If i took the negative view some have of blacks would i be correct?
If i took the negative view some have of gays would i be correct?

Just because YOU have that view that does not make it the ONLY view.

If you had read the post and the information you would see that i indeed said that there are "some" who think that way, as there are some wall street traders or solicitors or whatever that do.

The issue is blanket statements.

Can u name a single Black hate group?

If u want some censored shit.......go elsewhere. If u want the TRUTH, come 2 me.
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Reply #16 posted 08/26/08 12:15pm

mdiver

Graycap23 said:

mdiver said:



Because it is not valid, the association that YOU have is your frame of reference. That is not valid to me because that is NOT the association of many, both in England and in fact as this thread demonstrates, in the USA.

What you actually mean is "i have a negative view so you should accept that and not associate"

If i were to take the negative view some have of muslims would i be correct?
If i took the negative view some have of blacks would i be correct?
If i took the negative view some have of gays would i be correct?

Just because YOU have that view that does not make it the ONLY view.

If you had read the post and the information you would see that i indeed said that there are "some" who think that way, as there are some wall street traders or solicitors or whatever that do.

The issue is blanket statements.

Can u name a single Black hate group?


By your definition black skinheads i guess if you want to put all skinheads in that definition.

Then again i don't agree with your definition but how about Interahamwe,

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Reply #17 posted 08/26/08 12:25pm

deebee

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It's true about the roots of the movement. I'd recommend Shane Meadows' film This is England, which is set during the period that the right wing elements of the movement begin to take it over, to anyone that hasn't already seen it.

That said, I'd have thought anyone adopting a skinhead mode of appearance today would know of the right wing associations (I've known more than one white bloke who's accidentally shaved his head too short and thus spent the week smiling amiably at black people to avoid any misunderstanding!lol). And I'd be pretty surprised to learn that the leftist/anti-racist factions were currently particularly numerous or prominent in the movement.

"Traveler, there is no path. You make the path by walking..." - Antonio Machado
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Reply #18 posted 08/26/08 12:30pm

mdiver

deebee said:

It's true about the roots of the movement. I'd recommend Shane Meadows' film This is England, which is set during the period that the right wing elements of the movement begin to take it over, to anyone that hasn't already seen it.

That said, I'd have thought anyone adopting a skinhead mode of appearance today would know of the right wing associations (I've known more than one white bloke who's accidentally shaved his head too short and thus spent the week smiling amiably at black people to avoid any misunderstanding!lol). And I'd be pretty surprised to learn that the leftist/anti-racist factions were currently particularly numerous or prominent in the movement.


Total misread.
[Edited 8/26/08 12:34pm]

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Reply #19 posted 08/27/08 4:45pm

jone70

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deebee said:

It's true about the roots of the movement. I'd recommend Shane Meadows' film This is England, which is set during the period that the right wing elements of the movement begin to take it over, to anyone that hasn't already seen it.

That said, I'd have thought anyone adopting a skinhead mode of appearance today would know of the right wing associations (I've known more than one white bloke who's accidentally shaved his head too short and thus spent the week smiling amiably at black people to avoid any misunderstanding!lol). And I'd be pretty surprised to learn that the leftist/anti-racist factions were currently particularly numerous or prominent in the movement.


Yeah. Even though skinheads may have started out with one association, unfortunately now it seems like the prevalent association is the Neo-Nazi one.

It's the same with the swastika...that symbol can be found in ancient Hindu art/sculpture (the word 'swastika' derives from Sanskrit) where it denotes good luck or an auspicious object, and also appears in Buddhist art. I think most of us would agree that it now has the stigma of the Nazi's attached to it (and probably not "good luck").

The check. The string he dropped. The Mona Lisa. The musical notes taken out of a hat. The glass. The toy shotgun painting. The things he found. Therefore, everything seen–every object, that is, plus the process of looking at it–is a Duchamp.
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Forums > Politics & Religion > The Skinhead movement worldwide (Not just the USA)