independent and unofficial
Prince fan community site
Wed 3rd Dec 2008 9:51pm
Welcome! Sign up or enter username and password to remember me
Forum jump
Forums > Politics & Religion > The rival to the Bible
« Previous topic  Next topic »
Page 1 of 2 12>
Add a reply to this topic   Create new topic   Printable version   (Log in to 'subscribe' to this topic)
AuthorMessage
Thread started 10/06/08 8:31am

yxl1

avatar

The rival to the Bible

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/h...651105.stm

What is probably the oldest known bible is being digitised, reuniting its scattered parts for the first time since its discovery 160 years ago. It is markedly different from its modern equivalent. What's left out?

The world's oldest surviving Bible is in bits.

For 1,500 years, the Codex Sinaiticus lay undisturbed in a Sinai monastery, until it was found - or stolen, as the monks say - in 1844 and split between Egypt, Russia, Germany and Britain.

Now these different parts are to be united online and, from next July, anyone, anywhere in the world with internet access will be able to view the complete text and read a translation. FIND OUT MORE
Roger Bolton presents the Oldest Bible is on Radio 4 on Monday, 6 October, at 1100 BST

For those who believe the Bible is the inerrant, unaltered word of God, there will be some very uncomfortable questions to answer. It shows there have been thousands of alterations to today's bible.

The Codex, probably the oldest Bible we have, also has books which are missing from the Authorised Version that most Christians are familiar with today - and it does not have crucial verses relating to the Resurrection.

Anti-Semitic writings

The fact this book has survived at all is a miracle. Before its discovery in the early 19th Century by the Indiana Jones of his day, it remained hidden in St Catherine's Monastery since at least the 4th Century.

It survived because the desert air is ideal for preservation and because the monastery, on a Christian island in a Muslim sea, remained untouched, its walls unconquered.

Today, 30 mainly Greek Orthodox monks, dedicated to prayer, worship there, helped as in ages past by the Muslim Bedouin. For this place is holy to three great religions: Judaism, Christianity and Islam; a land where you can still see the Burning Bush where God spoke to Moses.

The monastery itself has the greatest library of early manuscripts outside the Vatican - some 33,000, and a collection of icons second to none.

Not surprisingly, it is now a World Heritage Site and has been called a veritable Ark, bringing spiritual treasures safely through the turbulent centuries. In many peoples' eyes the greatest treasure is the Codex, written in the time of the first Christian Emperor Constantine.

When the different parts are digitally united next year in a £1m project, anyone will be able to compare and contrast the Codex and the modern Bible.

Firstly, the Codex contains two extra books in the New Testament.

One is the little-known Shepherd of Hermas, written in Rome in the 2nd Century - the other, the Epistle of Barnabas. This goes out of its way to claim that it was the Jews, not the Romans, who killed Jesus, and is full of anti-Semitic kindling ready to be lit. "His blood be upon us," Barnabas has the Jews cry.

Discrepancies

Had this remained in subsequent versions, "the suffering of Jews in the subsequent centuries would, if possible, have been even worse", says the distinguished New Testament scholar Professor Bart Ehrman.

And although many of the other alterations and differences are minor, these may take some explaining for those who believe every word comes from God.

Faced with differing texts, which is the truly authentic one?

Mr Ehrman was a born again Bible-believing Evangelical until he read the original Greek texts and noticed some discrepancies.

The Bible we now use can't be the inerrant word of God, he says, since what we have are the sometimes mistaken words copied by fallible scribes.

"When people ask me if the Bible is the word of God I answer 'which Bible?'"

The Codex - and other early manuscripts - do not mention the ascension of Jesus into heaven, and omit key references to the Resurrection, which the Archbishop of Canterbury has said is essential for Christian belief.

Other differences concern how Jesus behaved. In one passage of the Codex, Jesus is said to be "angry" as he healed a leper, whereas the modern text records him as healing with "compassion".

Also missing is the story of the woman taken in adultery and about to be stoned - until Jesus rebuked the Pharisees (a Jewish sect), inviting anyone without sin to cast the first stone.

Nor are there words of forgiveness from the cross. Jesus does not say "Father forgive them for they know not what they do".

Fundamentalists, who believe every word in the Bible is true, may find these differences unsettling.

But the picture is complicated. Some argue that another early Bible, the Codex Vaticanus, is in fact older. And there are other earlier texts of almost all the books in the bible, though none pulled together into a single volume.

Many Christians have long accepted that, while the Bible is the authoritative word of God, it is not inerrant. Human hands always make mistakes.

"It should be regarded as a living text, something constantly changing as generation and generation tries to understand the mind of God," says David Parker, a Christian working on digitising the Codex.

Others may take it as more evidence that the Bible is the word of man, not God.

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #1 posted 10/06/08 8:41am

deebee

avatar

Interesting. The radio programme mentioned in the article is available to listen to online here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radi...pip/9vwi1/

"Traveler, there is no path. You make the path by walking..." - Antonio Machado
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #2 posted 10/06/08 8:43am

Cloudbuster

avatar

evillol

"Shake yer reptile, baby!" stoned
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #3 posted 10/06/08 8:46am

Shawnt25

Cloudbuster said:

evillol


Simple yet hilarious.

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #4 posted 10/06/08 10:05am

IrresistibleB1
tch

avatar

fascinating - thank you.

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #5 posted 10/06/08 10:25am

JellyBean

This is going to be good reading. I can't wait!!!

“Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative.” John Stuart Mill
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #6 posted 10/06/08 1:21pm

savoirfaire

avatar

JellyBean said:

This is going to be good reading. I can't wait!!!


The differences will be explained away/ignored/rejected/declared hoaxes. They always are.

Still interesting, thank you.

I'm only in it for the music.
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #7 posted 10/06/08 1:26pm

XxAxX

avatar

this calls for a new religion! woot!

ufo
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #8 posted 10/06/08 1:38pm

Shawnt25

savoirfaire said:


The differences will be explained away/ignored/rejected/declared hoaxes. They always are.

Still interesting, thank you.



I agree 100%. I was about to type something similar. For the majority of Christians, discoveries such as this mean nothing. Gnostic texts and the Lost Gospel of Judas has been found, but they never got more than a Discovery Channel Special.

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #9 posted 10/06/08 1:45pm

deebee

avatar

XxAxX said:

this calls for a new religion! woot!

I call 'Archbishop'!
biggrin

"Traveler, there is no path. You make the path by walking..." - Antonio Machado
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #10 posted 10/06/08 1:46pm

XxAxX

avatar

deebee said:

XxAxX said:

this calls for a new religion! woot!

I call 'Archbishop'!
biggrin



lol

ufo
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #11 posted 10/06/08 6:29pm

shellyevon

avatar

Is Jehovah's name in it? confused

It'll be interesting to see people's reactions to this one.

Men are from earth. Women are from earth. Deal with it.
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #12 posted 10/07/08 1:35am

Snap

avatar

nice anti-christian mix of paganism and truth
but little do many know where the real power lies

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #13 posted 10/07/08 2:46am

razor

No great surprise, since its long been known that several areas of the bible have been altered/added to over the years. The stories of the resurection even as thay stand are are contradictory and confused, so it's entirely believable that they were all added to strenghen the case.

It does make one wonder, if jesus really was the son of god, why have legions of men have felt the story needed elaborating and at times downright falsified. One can only assume the original tales were not sufficient to demonstrate his holiness, or possibly that the original stories were simply of a man trying to spread his beliefs and help his fellow man...?

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #14 posted 10/07/08 2:49am

Cloudbuster

avatar

Shawnt25 said:

savoirfaire said:


The differences will be explained away/ignored/rejected/declared hoaxes. They always are.

Still interesting, thank you.



I agree 100%. I was about to type something similar. For the majority of Christians, discoveries such as this mean nothing. Gnostic texts and the Lost Gospel of Judas has been found, but they never got more than a Discovery Channel Special.


nod No doubt it won't change a thing, but then no-one likes to admit that they've been had.

"Shake yer reptile, baby!" stoned
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #15 posted 10/07/08 2:52am

Snap

avatar

razor said:


It does make one wonder, if jesus really was the son of god, why have legions of men have felt the story needed elaborating and at times downright falsified. One can only assume the original tales were not sufficient to demonstrate his holiness, or possibly that the original stories were simply of a man trying to spread his beliefs and help his fellow man...?


the shining one has his hand in this
you give too much credit to man

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #16 posted 10/07/08 2:55am

Cloudbuster

avatar

razor said:

No great surprise, since its long been known that several areas of the bible have been altered/added to over the years. The stories of the resurection even as thay stand are are contradictory and confused, so it's entirely believable that they were all added to strenghen the case.

It does make one wonder, if jesus really was the son of god, why have legions of men have felt the story needed elaborating and at times downright falsified. One can only assume the original tales were not sufficient to demonstrate his holiness, or possibly that the original stories were simply of a man trying to spread his beliefs and help his fellow man...?


Well, Jesus is just one in a long line of sun gods, anyway.
His story is almost identical to many that went before, so...

"Shake yer reptile, baby!" stoned
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #17 posted 10/07/08 2:58am

razor

Cloudbuster said:

razor said:

No great surprise, since its long been known that several areas of the bible have been altered/added to over the years. The stories of the resurection even as thay stand are are contradictory and confused, so it's entirely believable that they were all added to strenghen the case.

It does make one wonder, if jesus really was the son of god, why have legions of men have felt the story needed elaborating and at times downright falsified. One can only assume the original tales were not sufficient to demonstrate his holiness, or possibly that the original stories were simply of a man trying to spread his beliefs and help his fellow man...?


Well, Jesus is just one in a long line of sun gods, anyway.
His story is almost identical to many that went before, so...



Indeed

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #18 posted 10/07/08 2:59am

razor

Snap said:

razor said:


It does make one wonder, if jesus really was the son of god, why have legions of men have felt the story needed elaborating and at times downright falsified. One can only assume the original tales were not sufficient to demonstrate his holiness, or possibly that the original stories were simply of a man trying to spread his beliefs and help his fellow man...?


the shining one has his hand in this
you give too much credit to man


Pray elaborate..

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #19 posted 10/07/08 3:59am

deebee

avatar

Cloudbuster said:

Well, Jesus is just one in a long line of sun gods, anyway.
His story is almost identical to many that went before, so...

There's an interesting (and 'Christian-friendly') documentary about the parallels between the story of Jesus and earlier stories by the British theologian Robert Beckford.

Worth a look... http://video.google.co.uk...y+of+jesus

"Traveler, there is no path. You make the path by walking..." - Antonio Machado
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #20 posted 10/07/08 5:07am

JellyBean

savoirfaire said:

JellyBean said:

This is going to be good reading. I can't wait!!!


The differences will be explained away/ignored/rejected/declared hoaxes. They always are.

Still interesting, thank you.


Oh yeah. I can hear the disapproving machines cranking up now.... biggrin

“Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative.” John Stuart Mill
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #21 posted 10/07/08 5:36am

Cloudbuster

avatar

deebee said:

Cloudbuster said:

Well, Jesus is just one in a long line of sun gods, anyway.
His story is almost identical to many that went before, so...

There's an interesting (and 'Christian-friendly') documentary about the parallels between the story of Jesus and earlier stories by the British theologian Robert Beckford.

Worth a look... http://video.google.co.uk...y+of+jesus


Thank you. wink

"Shake yer reptile, baby!" stoned
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #22 posted 10/07/08 5:38am

Cloudbuster

avatar

And let's not forget also that the idea of god/gods was born out of sun worship.

Aren't humans mad! biggrin

"Shake yer reptile, baby!" stoned
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #23 posted 10/07/08 6:08am

yxl1

avatar

http://www.kneelb4me.com/.../the-codex

Its all explained here! lol

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #24 posted 10/07/08 6:16am

Cloudbuster

avatar

yxl1 said:



However, some Christians are now seeing the codex as a “new light” – an intervention by god to give mankind a more accurate path to follow. Aaron Pridham, Pastor of the new Protestant church “The Pink Cross” expressed his delight at the discovery of the new books. From his flat in Brighton he told our reporter, “Sections of the codex actively promote loving homosexual relationships, something the old version never really did. We knew Christ could not possibly turn his back on his gay following and now we have real proof that Jesus was himself a practicing homosexual.”

lol

"Shake yer reptile, baby!" stoned
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #25 posted 10/07/08 6:41am

IrresistibleB1
tch

avatar

deebee said:

Cloudbuster said:

Well, Jesus is just one in a long line of sun gods, anyway.
His story is almost identical to many that went before, so...

There's an interesting (and 'Christian-friendly') documentary about the parallels between the story of Jesus and earlier stories by the British theologian Robert Beckford.

Worth a look... http://video.google.co.uk...y+of+jesus


that was very interesting - thank you.

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #26 posted 10/07/08 7:30am

RodeoSchro

Proof once again that Jesus existed.

And proof once again that He performed miracles that could only be performed by the Son of God.

Proud Member of Ivy's Posse!!!!!!!

Second Funkiest White Man in America

McCain = Bush = Failed policies. NO MORE!

WWW.NIGHTRANGER.COM
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #27 posted 10/07/08 7:36am

razor

RodeoSchro said:

Proof once again that Jesus existed.

And proof once again that He performed miracles that could only be performed by the Son of God.


Not many ever doubted that Jesus existed. As for "proof" that he performed miracles, or is the son of God, if you have it I suggest you sell it. You'll never have to work again! Alas, it doesn't exist...

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #28 posted 10/07/08 7:59am

RodeoSchro

razor said:

RodeoSchro said:

Proof once again that Jesus existed.

And proof once again that He performed miracles that could only be performed by the Son of God.


Not many ever doubted that Jesus existed. As for "proof" that he performed miracles, or is the son of God, if you have it I suggest you sell it. You'll never have to work again! Alas, it doesn't exist...


At least one miracle is referenced in the Codex. Jesus' disposition may be up for debate, but the fact that he healed a leper is unchanged.

So if you want to use the Codex to poke holes at Christianity, I submit you will have a hard time doing so.

Proud Member of Ivy's Posse!!!!!!!

Second Funkiest White Man in America

McCain = Bush = Failed policies. NO MORE!

WWW.NIGHTRANGER.COM
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #29 posted 10/07/08 8:07am

razor

RodeoSchro said:

razor said:



Not many ever doubted that Jesus existed. As for "proof" that he performed miracles, or is the son of God, if you have it I suggest you sell it. You'll never have to work again! Alas, it doesn't exist...


At least one miracle is referenced in the Codex. Jesus' disposition may be up for debate, but the fact that he healed a leper is unchanged.

So if you want to use the Codex to poke holes at Christianity, I submit you will have a hard time doing so.


What the codex shows is that the bible has been altered significantly over time. That is grounds for a legitimate "hole" in christianity although of course it does not in itself refute it.
As for the other stories that appear both now and then, they are not, and never have been, proof of anything. They are stories that one can choose to beleive or not, but they are not proof just becuase they are written. If you think otherwise, orgnote me: I have proof that Harry Potter defeated Voldemort and proof that Romeo loved Juliet...

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Page 1 of 2 12>
Add a reply to this topic   Create new topic   Printable version   (Log in to 'subscribe' to this topic)
« Previous topic  Next topic »
Forums > Politics & Religion > The rival to the Bible