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Thread started 04/19/04 8:27am

jaypotton

Are our expectations just too high

Prince has nothing left to prove and yet many of us, both fans and critics, always want more from him. We expect him to still amaze us with his musical repertoire and growth and to continue exploring new areas.

I admit that I am guilty of this. Musicology, IMHO, is not a brilliant album. It is good but not the classic I wanted with some killer tracks. But why should it be? It is certainly a lot more interesting and contains better quality songwriting and musicianship than the vast majority of pre-packaged lip-synching content out there at the moment.

You will notice that most of the reviews, either positive or negative, tend to only really compare Prince with himself "back in the day". Any disappointment about the album stems from fans and critics wanting another SOTT - ie to be shocked and amazed at an artist taking yet another strange and wonderful turn in their musical development.

No artist can sustain constant musical growth and change of direction throughout their career and none have to be the best of my knowledge (certainly not without alientating most of their audience).

Lets look at the benchmark by which all other artists are measured - The Beatles.

Their career as a band releasing records lasted from end 1962 to mid 1970 during which time they released 11 studio albums. It is almost universally agreed that across those 11 albums The Beatles demonstrated a phenominal and perhaps unrivalled level of musical growth, experimentation, originality and development.

Following their split the individual members of The Beatles continued to record but it is hard to see any particular originality in their work even though it goes without question that they continued to produce quality work and some beautiful songs. I am in no doubt that had The Beatles continued recording together their output would have become a shadow of their 60s work. Had their career lasted 25 years (and still be going) then they would have released an album in 1987. Now consider Paul McCartney's 80s work. It's okay but nothing particularly special - "Give My Regards To Broadstreet" anyone!

Now let's look at Prince. His first 11 albums take us from "For You" to "Batman". Would anybody argue that these also represent an almost equal level of musical growth, experimentation, originality and development? Had Prince stopped recording in 1989 would his legacy not also be held in almost as high regard as The Beatles?

It is probably just a coincidence but most people consider the releases up to Batman (though not including Batman which contained nothing really new - much like Let It Be) to be Prince's golden era and say how his 90s stuff doesn't measure up (arguable perhaps and certainly a matter of taste but the albums were no longer as consistently good despite featuring many good songs).

John Lennon's last album contained nothing original, "just" some beautiful well crafted songs. Perhaps we have to accept that this is where Prince is now (and has been for over a decade). He continues to produce good solid music but no longer needs or perhaps should explore new territory.

Maybe an artist only has a certain amount of time where they are at their creative peak and their art is part of the zeitgeist.

Prince is only really measured against himself these days. That must surely be the highest praise indeed.

What do others think?

P.S. I will say that Prince has in recent years (2001-2003) continued to stretch his musical muscles by exploring Jazz on TRC, the "X" album and News. However Jazz is not a mainstream format and was unlikely to secure any new fans or revive his popularity (not that this was his intention of course). I think for that Prince must be lauded.
[This message was edited Mon Apr 19 8:33:54 2004 by jaypotton]
'I loved him then, I love him now and will love him eternally. He's with our son now.' Mayte 21st April 2016 = the saddest quote I have ever read! RIP Prince and thanks for everything.
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Reply #1 posted 04/19/04 8:48am

javed

Well said Jay, I think a lot of us here can relate to where you are coming from. Prince has earned the right to do as he pleases. The thing is most of his most hardened critics on here are more frustrated than anything as they feel that he can actually do a lot more. Thing Prince has set the bar high and taken us with him.
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Reply #2 posted 04/19/04 9:03am

PurpleCharm

I agree with your entire post. I mean, is it realistic for Prince to top his best work? MJ will never top 'Thriller,' Madonna will never top her best work...neither will Whitney, Mariah and a slew of artist.
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Reply #3 posted 04/19/04 9:07am

PANDURITO

avatar

jaypotton asked:

Are our Xpectations just too high?


Not mine.
Eye level. Just between ONA and NEWS nod
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Reply #4 posted 04/19/04 11:07am

mentalist

avatar

You are correct in saying that Prince has been going on producing music that we have taken for granted. Prince has some of the most artistically creative, experimental and varied music styles that I have ever experieneced from a solitary artist.

Are we unfair to critcise him for releasing an album where for one of the very first times in 25yrs of released material, it feels that many of the tracks sound similar to previously released material.

I'm not sure of the reasons for this album to be commercially released worldwide when fan club only releases such as The Slaughterhouse, and The Chocolate Invasion reflect more strongly, the diversity and creativity in tracks, sequenced together on the same album that we are more accustomed to.
I also agree that even though nothing is outstanding on the album, nothing is actually average, and as a whole is the most consistantly playable album where each track effortlessly prepares you for the next.

If this is Princes way of regaining commercial awareness and reminding the masses that he is still very alive, still very here, and most of all, the creative genius he always has been, then this is obviously just a warm up excercise, preparing the world for whats about to come.

Bring it on!
Life's a Parade! LoveLife, LoveSexy!
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Reply #5 posted 04/19/04 11:37am

wyld1

jaypotton said:

Prince has nothing left to prove and yet many of us, both fans and critics, always want more from him. We expect him to still amaze us with his musical repertoire and growth and to continue exploring new areas.

I admit that I am guilty of this. Musicology, IMHO, is not a brilliant album. It is good but not the classic I wanted with some killer tracks. But why should it be? It is certainly a lot more interesting and contains better quality songwriting and musicianship than the vast majority of pre-packaged lip-synching content out there at the moment.

You will notice that most of the reviews, either positive or negative, tend to only really compare Prince with himself "back in the day". Any disappointment about the album stems from fans and critics wanting another SOTT - ie to be shocked and amazed at an artist taking yet another strange and wonderful turn in their musical development.

No artist can sustain constant musical growth and change of direction throughout their career and none have to be the best of my knowledge (certainly not without alientating most of their audience).

Lets look at the benchmark by which all other artists are measured - The Beatles.

Their career as a band releasing records lasted from end 1962 to mid 1970 during which time they released 11 studio albums. It is almost universally agreed that across those 11 albums The Beatles demonstrated a phenominal and perhaps unrivalled level of musical growth, experimentation, originality and development.

Following their split the individual members of The Beatles continued to record but it is hard to see any particular originality in their work even though it goes without question that they continued to produce quality work and some beautiful songs. I am in no doubt that had The Beatles continued recording together their output would have become a shadow of their 60s work. Had their career lasted 25 years (and still be going) then they would have released an album in 1987. Now consider Paul McCartney's 80s work. It's okay but nothing particularly special - "Give My Regards To Broadstreet" anyone!

Now let's look at Prince. His first 11 albums take us from "For You" to "Batman". Would anybody argue that these also represent an almost equal level of musical growth, experimentation, originality and development? Had Prince stopped recording in 1989 would his legacy not also be held in almost as high regard as The Beatles?

It is probably just a coincidence but most people consider the releases up to Batman (though not including Batman which contained nothing really new - much like Let It Be) to be Prince's golden era and say how his 90s stuff doesn't measure up (arguable perhaps and certainly a matter of taste but the albums were no longer as consistently good despite featuring many good songs).

John Lennon's last album contained nothing original, "just" some beautiful well crafted songs. Perhaps we have to accept that this is where Prince is now (and has been for over a decade). He continues to produce good solid music but no longer needs or perhaps should explore new territory.

Maybe an artist only has a certain amount of time where they are at their creative peak and their art is part of the zeitgeist.

Prince is only really measured against himself these days. That must surely be the highest praise indeed.

What do others think?

P.S. I will say that Prince has in recent years (2001-2003) continued to stretch his musical muscles by exploring Jazz on TRC, the "X" album and News. However Jazz is not a mainstream format and was unlikely to secure any new fans or revive his popularity (not that this was his intention of course). I think for that Prince must be lauded.
[This message was edited Mon Apr 19 8:33:54 2004 by jaypotton]


Well said. But, I am constantly amazed at what he produces. I just don't expect every album to hit me the way Purple Rain did, or LoveSexy or Sign O the Times. The Rainbow Children did effect me that way. I just want new music. It doesn't have to be his best, nor his worse. I have no expectation other than it's new music.
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Reply #6 posted 04/19/04 11:39am

wyld1

jaypotton said:

Prince has nothing left to prove and yet many of us, both fans and critics, always want more from him. We expect him to still amaze us with his musical repertoire and growth and to continue exploring new areas.

I admit that I am guilty of this. Musicology, IMHO, is not a brilliant album. It is good but not the classic I wanted with some killer tracks. But why should it be? It is certainly a lot more interesting and contains better quality songwriting and musicianship than the vast majority of pre-packaged lip-synching content out there at the moment.

You will notice that most of the reviews, either positive or negative, tend to only really compare Prince with himself "back in the day". Any disappointment about the album stems from fans and critics wanting another SOTT - ie to be shocked and amazed at an artist taking yet another strange and wonderful turn in their musical development.

No artist can sustain constant musical growth and change of direction throughout their career and none have to be the best of my knowledge (certainly not without alientating most of their audience).

Lets look at the benchmark by which all other artists are measured - The Beatles.

Their career as a band releasing records lasted from end 1962 to mid 1970 during which time they released 11 studio albums. It is almost universally agreed that across those 11 albums The Beatles demonstrated a phenominal and perhaps unrivalled level of musical growth, experimentation, originality and development.

Following their split the individual members of The Beatles continued to record but it is hard to see any particular originality in their work even though it goes without question that they continued to produce quality work and some beautiful songs. I am in no doubt that had The Beatles continued recording together their output would have become a shadow of their 60s work. Had their career lasted 25 years (and still be going) then they would have released an album in 1987. Now consider Paul McCartney's 80s work. It's okay but nothing particularly special - "Give My Regards To Broadstreet" anyone!

Now let's look at Prince. His first 11 albums take us from "For You" to "Batman". Would anybody argue that these also represent an almost equal level of musical growth, experimentation, originality and development? Had Prince stopped recording in 1989 would his legacy not also be held in almost as high regard as The Beatles?

It is probably just a coincidence but most people consider the releases up to Batman (though not including Batman which contained nothing really new - much like Let It Be) to be Prince's golden era and say how his 90s stuff doesn't measure up (arguable perhaps and certainly a matter of taste but the albums were no longer as consistently good despite featuring many good songs).

John Lennon's last album contained nothing original, "just" some beautiful well crafted songs. Perhaps we have to accept that this is where Prince is now (and has been for over a decade). He continues to produce good solid music but no longer needs or perhaps should explore new territory.

Maybe an artist only has a certain amount of time where they are at their creative peak and their art is part of the zeitgeist.

Prince is only really measured against himself these days. That must surely be the highest praise indeed.

What do others think?

P.S. I will say that Prince has in recent years (2001-2003) continued to stretch his musical muscles by exploring Jazz on TRC, the "X" album and News. However Jazz is not a mainstream format and was unlikely to secure any new fans or revive his popularity (not that this was his intention of course). I think for that Prince must be lauded.
[This message was edited Mon Apr 19 8:33:54 2004 by jaypotton]


Well said. But, I am constantly amazed at what he produces. I just don't expect every album to hit me the way Purple Rain did, or LoveSexy or Sign O the Times. The Rainbow Children did effect me that way. I just want new music. It doesn't have to be his best, nor his worse. I have no expectation other than it's new music. Also, the purpose of his music, is to make music. He has always been experimental. In no way, shape or form was Purple Rain a mainstream album. His albums have never been mainstream. The only time I felt that he tried to make a mainstream album, was Diamonds and Pearls. And it was till an awesome album.
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Reply #7 posted 04/19/04 11:53am

getwild007

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good points certainly being made here. truth b told eye don't kno if my personal expectationz r 2 high or not. Sometimes yes & sometimes no. Do peeple in general expect 2 much from Prince? Yeah, in general eye think they do. When some1 is labeled a genius and then produces music that, while good, doesn't equal his early work in the eyez of the fans, peeple alwayz complain.

Do eye personally think Musicology is a good album? Yes. But eye can understand why some peeple don't like it. eye find that most of the peeple eye meet that don't like the album are fans that really miss Prince's lustier days, and long 4 him 2 return 2 the horny antics of yesteryear. While eye understand it, eye agree with Prince when he says there ain't no more envelope 2 push. The guy iz 45 yearz old. not 25. True that age ain't nuthin but a #, but Prince is exhibiting maturity in my estimation. eye'd be freaked out, (and truth b told a little bored), if he was 45 and still remaking Dirty Mind, Purple Rain, or whatever.

My philosophy is just 2 sit back and enjoy the new music 4 what it is. What satisfaction is there in holding it up 4 comparison against Sign 'O' The Times, Parade or 1999? In my estimation Prince's truly great albums are on an even keel w/ each other simply because none of them can truly be compared. They're all 2 different.
wildsign The Mothership Connection... Funk, Soul, R&B, & Jazz every Monday night @ 8:00 p.m. Listen @ www.wqaq.com wildsign (We are off the air 4 the Summer. Returning in early September 2004)
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Reply #8 posted 04/19/04 4:26pm

blackboab

jaypotton, i agree 100% with what you have written, that is the most sense any orger has made since i first started coming here 3 years ago...the beatles broke up at the right time as their creative growth was complete. prince had amazing musicial growth between 1978 and 1988 and these two musicial giants are my favourites of all time.
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Reply #9 posted 04/19/04 4:31pm

bkw

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Good commentary Jay! thumbs up!
When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading.
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Reply #10 posted 04/19/04 4:52pm

NouveauDance

avatar

I agree with your sentiment, and myself and many others have said the same countless times.

Where does one go from here though as a fan? Does one say Musicology is a fantastic album, even though we admit it doesn't match his past output? Do we take this into account and turn a 5/10 into a 8/10? I will not be lowering my critical standards.

Seems like Prince's exciting, innovative, ground-breaking days are long over, just like every other pop act, they have their creative peak, and their commercial peak - Prince is joining the ranks of those artists who are past their best, yet still releasing records.

I get my exciting, ground-breaking music elsewhere these days, but I consider myself a fan of Prince's music for life, and as such, I'll always have an interest in checking out his new releases, even if I know (and accept) they will never reach the quality benchmark of the 1978-1988 period.

Saying that - TRC excited me, and Xpectation was a joy - makes it all the more sour that he followed with NEWS and Musicology.

Who knows what's coming next.

After Rave, did anyone see TRC & Xpectation coming? cool


//
[This message was edited Mon Apr 19 16:57:40 2004 by NouveauDance]
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Reply #11 posted 04/19/04 7:23pm

avatarfunk

someone told me once that an expectation is a premeditated resentment. wink
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Reply #12 posted 04/20/04 2:23am

jaypotton

NouveauDance said:

I agree with your sentiment, and myself and many others have said the same countless times.

Where does one go from here though as a fan? Does one say Musicology is a fantastic album, even though we admit it doesn't match his past output? Do we take this into account and turn a 5/10 into a 8/10? I will not be lowering my critical standards.

Seems like Prince's exciting, innovative, ground-breaking days are long over, just like every other pop act, they have their creative peak, and their commercial peak - Prince is joining the ranks of those artists who are past their best, yet still releasing records.

I get my exciting, ground-breaking music elsewhere these days, but I consider myself a fan of Prince's music for life, and as such, I'll always have an interest in checking out his new releases, even if I know (and accept) they will never reach the quality benchmark of the 1978-1988 period.

Saying that - TRC excited me, and Xpectation was a joy - makes it all the more sour that he followed with NEWS and Musicology.

Who knows what's coming next.

After Rave, did anyone see TRC & Xpectation coming? cool


//
[This message was edited Mon Apr 19 16:57:40 2004 by NouveauDance]


Very good points - where do we, as fans, go from here? Being a Prince fan is a journey that contains both frustration and joy. Personally I have loved the trip so far and expect to for a long time yet. Following Rave with TRC etc = wow where did that come from?

It will be very interesting to see what happens next.

I "like" Musicology but do not love it. However, it is enjoyable and I ain't stopped playing yet!
'I loved him then, I love him now and will love him eternally. He's with our son now.' Mayte 21st April 2016 = the saddest quote I have ever read! RIP Prince and thanks for everything.
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Reply #13 posted 04/20/04 2:25am

jaypotton

THANK YOU EVERYONE for your responses and thoughts. Wow not a single flame so far!

While a part of me longs for Prince to surprise me AND have commercial success (like in the 80s) another part accepts that this probably cannot happen again and that he will do one or the other.

As long as we continue to get the music then it's all good in the world!
'I loved him then, I love him now and will love him eternally. He's with our son now.' Mayte 21st April 2016 = the saddest quote I have ever read! RIP Prince and thanks for everything.
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Reply #14 posted 04/20/04 4:27am

Whistler

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I heard a reviewer of Musicology on the radio say when they asked him about the album.

U dont compare Van Goghs paintings. Sure he has some paintings that are less than others but they keep bein Van Gogh's.

I like that point he makes. Even though it might not be his best (certainly not his worst imo) but its still way better than 99% of what;s out there.
--- Where am I? ---

Tell me who in this house knows about the quake?
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