Here's another Crucial question as we ponder a bad public relations move by Prince...

Londell, his lawyer...he's getting paid as a result of this sueing move.

So is Londell essentially PROFITING from the illegal posting of live tracks?

Hard one, huh?


I know this is a lot of questions, but bear with me as I come up with these. I hope you help me answer them and I encourage ya'lls to come up with more thought provoking ones as well.

Some are a little out there, but in LAW and CONTRACTS, trust me THEY DO analyze things to an incredible and sometimes laughable, but in the end dead serious manner.

For example some contracts talk about "the perpetuity and for all the universe" or something like that. Prince mentioned this in the Kurt Loder interview in '99. Strange wording but true.

'?
[This message was edited Wed Feb 26 4:29:49 PST 2003 by IstenSzek]

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[This message was edited Thu Oct 10 8:58:20 PDT 2002 by katt]

IstenSzek said:

I think you found a serious problem at Paisley Park. I wonder if the sit down and discuss all the possible questions that might come out of announcing details on a new album project.

And if that's the case, which it seemingly IS, DON'T announce ANYTHING until you've got the details sorted OUT!!!


See, now all this has made me concentrate on the negative, like yeah, were's all the ALBUMS I paid for...not good.

FlyingCloudPassenger said:

I have long felt that Prince should be doing this. It's a piece of p*ss really. Make a soundboard recording of every show and then just cut CDs to order. Promise that fans can get them within 6 weeks - everyone's happy. Better quality for us, a profit opportunity for him. After all, why shouldn't he benefit - he's the one standing up there doing all the creative stuff, and the boots are gonna circulate anyway, regardless of what he says or does.

Many have replied about what Prince should do and what he shouldn't,but at the end of the day it's HIS art. If he were to announce that upon his death all master recordings in his vault are to be destroyed,there is nothing anyone here could do about it.

FlyingCloudPassenger said:

Oh well, at least this way the upcoming live set is getting some press coverage, so it might not even be such a bad move from a business point of view.

Londell's not involved. This guy is representing Prince:

http://www.superlawyers.c...=Blackwell

classic77 said:

At this rate there won't be many fans left by that time and personally I think such a scenario would even be more motivation for folks to get bootlegs.

Raspberry said:

IMO Prince shouldn't promise anything to fans unless he gets professionals to do the job.

ahh, so mr. cornpone's bein bitter towards practically every single person who does bootleggz?

whether they sell 'em...or not?

awright, somebody musta put some meanie powder in his cornflakes...not all bootleggers sell their stuff!!! the ones who do are the ones he needs 2 direct that 2! besides, he definitely cannot stop each and every bootlegger he comes in contact with via lawsuit or what-not...4 every one he stops, there'll be...oh, about 50 behind that one. not an easy battle.

this is one of those times where i wanna dropkick p, man.


or betta yet, he needs one of these thrown at 'im...

damn the edits!
[This message was edited Sat Sep 28 8:17:13 PDT 2002 by PlastikLuvAffair]

joeycoco said:

IstenSzek said:

I totally agree, I wouldn't be tempted to buy a boot if I knew that Prince would probably put out a clean version of the same thing. The problem is that he doesn't tell us shit so we are in the dark, and since we just want to listen to some jams we do what we got to do!
no win situation.
MS

the key issue here is that bootleggers only bootleg if the demand is there - and that demand only comes from people like us who have everything he has officially released and cough up $100 to his club...he is getting everything he can out of us.

if i want to take advantage of bootleggers then i will - prince has had enough cash out of me for me to be able to spend some of my cash on someone else's efforts.

(hey, after all, these guys deserve £20 for a CD - imagine where they must have to stash their tape recorders to get them past the groping buffoons at his shows...)

joeycoco said:

aint that the truth!

joeycoco said:

I never said you didn't know what you have. Learn to read.



It was also said to say which is childish.



You got caught and banned. It doesn't exactly exude intelligence considering where you were and your exuse for it.



I wouldn't trade orgnotes with a liar and a theif. And I couldnt care less whether you respond or not. Youre a laughingstock for many reasons.

Bootleggers may not be fans, but they do manage to provide a service Prince does not - his music on demand. Prince could beat the bootleggers, we could "hear what freedom sounds like," but until he does, they're welcome to continue in their shady services, as far as I'm concerned.

Can Prince actually prove he LOSES money when people record one of his shows and resells it? How?

Labels like Sabotage do a fantastic job of capturing and distributing an astounding volume of material that Prince himself has never made available, offered for sale, or announced. For example, how is the distribution and sale of the "Small Club 1988" show LOSING money for Prince? Is it available at Wal-Mart? Is it available on NPGMC? Do you think, upon hearing that material, that you would be MORE or LESS likely to purchase a Prince CD or ticket to a live show? Can you quantiify this?

I spent $375 this year on NPGMC membership and concert tickets/tour book. I haven't paid for Prince bootleg material in years. Does that make me a pirate? How do you quantify my "profit" if it is aesthetic and not financial in nature? How would Prince quantify his "loss" for punitive damages? He is seeking $150K from this fan. How did he come across this number? Lost revenues? Pain and suffering?

My point is - if there are no goods being sold, thus no literally defined loss, then how can this constitute theft? What is the UPC# or SKU# of the recording in question? What's its SoundScan sell-through numbers? How many tickets to that show were not sold because the material came out three months afterward? Can you steal something that doesn't exist?

Finally, if I were Prince, I would lay off the fans and simply do a DEAL with Sabotage, Thunderball and the others for a piece of the action. Exchange a plug-in to the soundboard at all concert appearances for 50% of the revenue after mfg. and distribution costs. It's found money for Prince, because he's not releasing this material anyway. NPGMC doesn't have nearly the sophistication of production and distribution, or the infrastructure to handlle the sheer quantity of material that these "underground" labels have.

That's my take on things. Thanks for reading.

Singen

Singen said:

Great post Singen. You gave thoughtful questions and another feasable and possible solution. Worth looking into. Love your enemies is basically what is preached and it probabbly could be done.

What if in Prince and Paisley Park, PRN Productions, would actually go to Sabotage and others like them and send them letters to turn over all their material, I mean all the produced items and even website over to Prince instead of getting sued. Then hire them as designers, because, obviously, they got good graphic designers and seem to really put an effort into making great packages, and meet the demands of fans.

Hey guys!

Rate my topic so hopefully it can still live a little longer with a high rating (not that I'm expecting only high ratings)!

Thanks!

FlyingCloudPassenger said:[quote]

Supernova said:

Well, firstly "some" doesn't seem to make a difference to Prince, I guess considering the proliferation of them circulating that "some" is minute. But having said that, I'm not anti-bootleg at all. Although I do understand his stance, and the fact that there was a warning ahead of time.

And secondly, "Paz"=peace. The "z" is pronounced as an "s".

Paz!

I think part of the problem with the solution of recording every song and cutting CD's to undermine the bootleggers is that Prince chooses to release a very small percentage of the music he makes.

The perfectionist theory must apply here becuz if Prince was truly as moneyhungry as some people claim AND it was factual that he could cut a deal with Sabotage and make money without a doubt...then he would do it right???

Gnammete all,

i have just a thougt:

Prince cant stop the bootleggers just w/ a Warning!!

i just think He should fire every his sound-techincal crew... i think they record all the Prince music... and they put out it from the Park as bootlegs

I just think that He Knows about all the Celebration cd boxes

If it's forbidden 2 introduce recording stuff in the Park, how it's possible that we have that cd boxes...???

:LOVE: :LOVE: :LOVE:

VAMPY

VAMPY said:

i dont think his tech crew would be th eones recording these bootlegs,since u can tell by the quality of atleast the 2 celebration trax i have downloaded,that they are audience cuts.

VAMPY said:

Because he has incompetent people on all levels, including security. If he's so uptight about bootlegs he should do everything possible to prevent people from getting in recording gear, specially at Paisley Park. But the fact that people managed to get stuff in proves that it doesn't really matter that much to him.

He should realise that people want recordings from shows he did. And if he doesn't supply them, people will buy bootlegs. As mentioned, The Who releases their own CD's, Pearl Jam did it. Why can't he? Because he doesn't care.

It's time he realised that it's the bootlegs that kept him interesting the last couple of years. And the people who buy bootlegs are the ones that have all the original material as well. And since he never released any live shows in the past, he hasn't lost any money over it as well.

JeePee said:

I've never thought of Paisley Park security as being incompetent. What more is there to do? Metal detectors and pat-down searches aren't working... should Prince make his guests submit to strip searches in order to enter Paisley Park?

Keeping out recorders is even more difficult when he's on tour. At Paisley Park, he has a professional security staff. But at tour gigs, he relies upon the venue's minimum-wage security employees to screen audience members. And even if Prince wants the venues to thoroughly screen attendees, the venues might be reluctant to offend their paying patrons with intrusive security checks.

They can't stop the bootleggers, and with that e-mail they gave more than a reason to get into the concert with a recorder. just like some kind of challenge!

and 1 more thing before I go, if they're trying 2 stop bootlegers how come some sites are still selling bootlegs? and how come they are so easy 2 find?

And what about the Indianapolis EP from the latest ona tour, the sound came directly from the mixer!!! not from the audience!!!

Think about it!!!

Are u all sure P and his crew are not involved with it?

If Prince wants to sell the recordings himself fine, otherwise he should fuck off. For the sake of posterity and the documentation of actual historical events bootlegging is a perfectly legit, even 'god given' right. The only reason Prince gets mad is cause he doesn't get paid, and in this country the laweyers and coporations are on his side. So what. Years after he's gone, and his lawyers are gone, and the system changes, and etc... the tapes live on. The events of those evenings are captured and preserved. What can be wrong with that? I perform, record every song if you want! Ani doesn't care, Phish never cared, the Dead never cared... Fucking money hungry self centered capitalists...
[This message was edited Wed Oct 2 15:13:02 PDT 2002 by PrincPDC]

JeePee said:

I think his take on it is that if copies are available on CD, he'll have fewer attendees at the shows. Why go through the hassle of purchasing tickets or standing in line at the venue if you can simply order or download the same show? He also may not WANT some of these shows available due to what he perceives as poor band performance. I don't know if he'll ever really be convinced otherwise.

I think that in reality, as a fan, you really want to see him perform. Play his guitar, move as he plays the piano, see him almost dance (!), see what he wears, etc. Plus the lighting, the other players, it's the experience.

So really, there is nothing to worry about in that end. People want momento's. They want to relive a show they attended or pretend they were at a show far away. That's why The Who offer their shows. They know that the live experience is not threatened by a bootleg or soundboard official albums, people want to be there.

Here's another one. If a fan uses a cell phone to let someone else listen in on the show, is that an offense? What if in the other end they record the show?

Interesting huh? Discuss.

I kind of liken this whole thing to photographing a public statue and making that picture available ot share over the net. Is THAT theft? I think not.

NPGMC needs to spend less time chasing so called "bootleggers" and more time servicing their customers. If Prince modeled his approach after The Grateful Dead, this would be a moot issue and his fanbase would INCREASE.

Music lovers are not the enemy, they are the lifeblood.

Now, selling these unauthorized recordings is a different matter, but, like I said, Prince could cut the legs out from under this by adopting the approach I described above. Who would buy from the bootleggers if we could just share the experience freely with each other? It worked for The Dead and combined they don't have Prince's talent.